hey Joe!

topic posted Fri, September 7, 2007 - 7:17 PM by  offlineJ Timothy
this is a fortean tribe...and you are no believer in mysteries or fortean phenomenon -

you and your friends should start your own anti-Sylvia tribe or whatever it is that you are up to!
posted by:
J Timothy
Portland
  • Re: hey Joe!

    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 7:37 PM
    CHARLES HOY FORT (from Wikipedia)

    Charles Hoy Fort (6 August 1874 – 3 May 1932) was an American writer and researcher into anomalous phenomena. (According to some sources[attribution needed] he was born on 9 August.)
    Jerome Clark writes that Fort was "Essentially a satirist hugely skeptical of human beings' — especially scientists' claims to ultimate knowledge". (Clark 2000, 123) (see Pyrrhonism for a type of skepticism strongly reminiscent of Fort's). Clark describes Fort's writing style as a "distinctive blend of mocking humor, penetrating insight, and calculated outrageousness". (Clark 1998, 200)
    Writer Colin Wilson describes Fort as "a kind of patron saint of cranks" (Wilson, 199), and also argues that running through Fort's work is "the feeling that no matter how honest scientists think they are, they are still influenced by various unconscious assumptions that prevent them from attaining true objectivity. Expressed in a sentence, Fort's principle goes something like this: People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels." (Wilson, 201; emphases his)
    Fort's books sold well, and remain in print. Today, the term Fortean or Forteana is used to describe various anomalous phenomena.

    PYRRHONISM

    Pyrrhonism, or Pyrrhonian skepticism, was a school of skepticism founded by Aenesidemus in the first century BC and recorded by Sextus Empiricus in the late 2nd century or early 3rd century AD. It was named after Pyrrho, a philosopher who lived from c. 360 to c. 270 BC, although the relationship between the philosophy of the school and of the historical figure is murky. Pyrrhonism became influential during the past few centuries when the modern scientific worldview was born.
    Whereas 'academic' skepticism, with as its most famous adherent Carneades, claims that "Nothing can be known, not even this", Pyrrhonian skeptics withhold any assent with regard to non-evident propositions and remain in a state of perpetual inquiry. According to them, even the statement that nothing can be known is dogmatic.
    For example, Pyrrhonians might assert that a lack of proof cannot constitute disproof, and that a lack of belief is vastly different from a state of active disbelief. Rather than disbelieving psychic powers, for instance, based on the lack of evidence of such things, Pyrrhonians recognize that we cannot be certain that new evidence won't turn up in the future, and so they intentionally remain tentative and continue their inquiry. Pyrrhonians also question accepted knowledge, and view dogmatism as a disease of the mind.
    A brief period in western history is referred to by philosophers as the Pyrrhonic Crisis, during the birth of modernity. In Feudal society absolute truth was provided by divine authority. However, as this fell from legitimacy, there was a brief lag before the enlightenment produced the nation-state and science as the new sources of absolute truth. During this period relativist views similar to those held in Pyrrhonism were popular among thinkers of the time.
    Pyrrhonian skepticism is similar to the form of skepticism called Zeteticism promoted by Marcello Truzzi.
  • Re: hey Joe!

    Fri, September 7, 2007 - 8:21 PM
    "To discuss anything fortean: News, Ghosts, Paranormal, Occult, Cults, Conspiracy, Cryptozoology, Parapsycology, UFOlogy, Urban Legends and so on...."

    Show me where it says one must believe without question?
    • Re: hey Joe!

      Sat, September 8, 2007 - 1:25 AM
      <<Writer Colin Wilson describes Fort as "a kind of patron saint of cranks" (Wilson, 199), and also argues that running through Fort's work is "the feeling that no matter how honest scientists think they are, they are still influenced by various unconscious assumptions that prevent them from attaining true objectivity. Expressed in a sentence, Fort's principle goes something like this: People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels.">>

      read carefully, you probably missed this part...
      • Re: hey Joe!

        Sat, September 8, 2007 - 1:32 AM
        Charles Fort was the Fox Mulder of his time and this place is like the X-files....stuff without conventional explanations. Remember, "I want to believe"? It says discuss, NOT trash and debunk like you are doing. Discussion infers an open mind and open-ended kind of thing...you think?
        • Re: hey Joe!

          Sat, September 8, 2007 - 6:05 AM
          I have an open mind. Just not a vacuous one.
          • Re: hey Joe!

            Sat, September 8, 2007 - 9:28 PM
            Yeah, well...I guess you are saying Charles Fort had a vacuous mind? Or that I do? What is YOUR definition of such?
            • Re: hey Joe!

              Sun, September 9, 2007 - 7:09 AM
              The mission statement for this tribe clearly states to "discuss".

              Blind belief is not discussion.

              Perhaps the essential point you missed in your copy and past of the Wikipedia page on Charles Fort - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fort - is that he was a satirist. Perhaps if you would read some of his original works you might find that many are written with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

              So - no I don't think Fort was vacuous.

              I do think that blind belief is vacuous.

              I do think any one who thinks discussion means agreement is vacuous.

              I do think any one who must use straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks to make their point is being very vacuous.
              • Re: hey Joe!

                Sun, September 9, 2007 - 7:58 PM
                Charles Fort aimed his satire at the folks on your particular side of the fence, in case you haven't got that yet. That is my whole point here.
                • Re: hey Joe!

                  Sun, September 9, 2007 - 8:00 PM
                  How many diagrams do I have to draw?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: hey Joe!

                    Sun, September 9, 2007 - 8:05 PM
                    Charles Fort would have been diametrically opposed to your statement that blind belief is vacuous, because "People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels."

                    He said this in support of "vacuous belief" as you call it...

                    YOU are the guy with a psychological need NOT to believe in marvels. Clear? He was talking about you, Joe.
                    • Re: hey Joe!

                      Sun, September 9, 2007 - 8:19 PM
                      Tell ya what - when you become moderator of this tribe then you can decide what can and can not be posted here.

                      Till then - have a nice day.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: hey Joe!

                    Sun, September 9, 2007 - 8:12 PM
                    "If any spiritualistic medium can do stunts, there is no more need for special conditions than there is for a chemist to turn down lights, start operations with a hymn, and ask whether there's any chemical present that has affinity with something named Hydrogen".

                    "Now there are so many scientists who believe in dowsing, that the suspicion comes to me that it may be only a myth after all".

                    Charles Fort



                    Hmm. Seems to me he liked to have fun with both sides.

                    I think he would find people like you quite funny. After all the one thing Fort believed in the least was belief in anything.
                    • Re: hey Joe!

                      Sun, September 9, 2007 - 10:05 PM
                      Well, considering your posts here so far, and how you seem to take a Penn & Teller or Randi perspective...I still have my reservations. But, knock yourself out.
                      • Re: hey Joe!

                        Tue, September 11, 2007 - 10:13 PM
                        BTW, what you posted reads to me as satire against scientists and empiricism...NOT the other way around.
                        • Re: hey Joe!

                          Wed, September 19, 2007 - 7:37 AM
                          hmmmmmm........i don't say a lot on this tribe, but i enjoy it nonetheless because i've always had an interest in things that are hard to explain or mysterious........i have never considered myself 'vacuous', but rather more openminded than closed.........there are things i believe in and things that i don't, but ever since i was a child i have chosen to believe rather than not because to me it makes the world a much more interesting place to 'hope' that there is a loch ness monster and bigfoot and mothman, etc.....because who has ever proved that there isn't? as for myself, i would always be on the side of the ones wanting to prove the existence of such creatures rather than those wanting to disprove, but i have no problem with skeptics or disbelievers and i feel no compulsion to try to make them believe.........my own belief is what matters to me........
                          • Re: hey Joe!

                            Wed, September 19, 2007 - 11:32 AM
                            >i have chosen to believe<

                            This is the essence of your argument. Unfortunately what we are discussing is not a matter of choice it is a matter of evidence. Skeptics do not choose to disbelieve any more than they choose to believe. They examine the available evidence.

                            It is true that Fort had little charity for the "scientists" who dismissed out of hand such claims but if you would really examine his writings you will find he had a similar distaste for those who chose to blindly believe.

                            I still think that he was having a great deal of fun with the true believers on both sides. After all as stated previously what Fort believed in least of all was belief itself.

                            There are many things that are fun to believe but I don't see how that makes the world any more interesting than it already is.

                            Even Carl Sagan - the skeptics skeptic - could have been considered a Fortean in his own right.

                            He was the first truly mainstream to organize a scientific conference on UFOs.

                            He did not care for scientists who were dismissive of claims before examining them.

                            He believed all subjects should be open for discussion - to a point. At some point the weight of evidence must make you decide one way or another.

                            Again it is the evidence that must lead you to a conclusion nit a desire for it to be true.


                            >who has ever proved that there isn't?<

                            A yes - the great logical fallacy. That somehow it must be true until someone proves it untrue.

                            Returning to Sagan and what has become known as Sagan's Law "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs."

                            It is not for me or any one else to disprove a hypothesis. It is for the presenter of the hypothesis to present sufficient evidence to its truth.

                            So who is truly more Fortian - the person who says examine all claims and dismiss those that prove false? Or is it the one who says believe in everything that is "alternative" because it makes my world more interesting?

                            By the way - I do hope that such things as Bigfoot and Nessie exist. I just need better evidence than has so far been presented.
                            • Re: hey Joe!

                              Wed, September 19, 2007 - 2:04 PM
                              i know very little about Fort himself or his beliefs..........i just said my little bit sort of thinking i was upholding this particular tribe (and you Joe)...........the most mysterious thing i have ever witnessed with my own eyes were the brown mountain lights..........
                            • Re: hey Joe!

                              Sun, September 23, 2007 - 8:12 PM
                              <<It is true that Fort had little charity for the "scientists" who dismissed out of hand such claims but if you would really examine his writings you will find he had a similar distaste for those who chose to blindly believe.

                              I still think that he was having a great deal of fun with the true believers on both sides. After all as stated previously what Fort believed in least of all was belief itself.>>

                              You could just as likely be projecting something onto Fort that is your own desire, as you might prefer that others think as you do...

                              <<Again it is the evidence that must lead you to a conclusion, not a desire for it to be true.>>

                              Absolute BS, in my opinion. There is NO such thing as an objective human being and the above statement is just about as UNFORTEAN as you can possibly get....every scientist pre-invests in where their investigation is going and what their desired results might be. Otherwise, you have no motivation to investigate ANYTHING in the first place. Facts are simply not that inspiring or motivating, it is the fantasies that ARE. This was Fort's entire MO. You are the one who does not know whereof you speak, Joe. You ascribe traits and characteristics to Charles Fort that simply NEVER existed. He was NOT a James Randi or a Penn & Teller. He was their opposites. You belong in a skeptic's society, not in a true Fortean one. Your entire thread proves this....
                              • Re: hey Joe!

                                Sun, September 23, 2007 - 9:18 PM
                                >You belong in a skeptic's society, not in a true Fortean one. Your entire thread proves this....<

                                First it is your thread not mine.

                                Second - when you are moderator then feel free to dictate until then, have a nice day.
                                • Re: hey Joe!

                                  Tue, September 25, 2007 - 11:16 PM
                                  I am not the mod here, that is true. But your mistatements are very hard to ignore, since you seem to not be able to understand even the Fortean quotes that you are posting....as most of what you have posted here (when taken in actual context and with their true sarcasm in mind) seems to be opposed to your own POV. To almost anyone (but you, it would seem), this might be glaringly obvious.


                                  have a nice day yourself...
                                  • Forteana and mainstream science

                                    Some skeptics and critics have frequently called Fort credulous and naïve, a charge his supporters deny strongly. Over and over again in his writing, Fort rams home a few basic points that were decades ahead of mainstream scientific acceptance, and that are frequently forgotten in discussions of the history and philosophy of science:
                                    Fort often notes that the boundaries between science and pseudoscience are 'fuzzy': the boundary lines are not very well defined, and they might change over time.
                                    Fort also points out that whereas facts are objective, how facts are interpreted depends on who is doing the interpreting and in what context.
                                    Fort insisted that there is a strong sociological influence on what is considered 'acceptable' or 'damned' (see strong program in the sociology of scientific knowledge).
                                    Though he never used the term "magical thinking", Fort offered many arguments and observations that are similar to the concept: he argued that most (if not all) people are at least occasionally guilty of irrational and "non scientific" thinking.
                                    Fort points out the problem of underdetermination: that the same data can sometimes be explained by more than one theory.
                                    Similarly, writer John Michell notes that "Fort gave several humorous instances of the same experiment yielding two different results, each one gratifying the experimenter." Fort noted that if controlled experiments — a pillar of the scientific method — could produce such widely varying results depending on who conducted them, then the scientific method itself might be open to doubt, or at least to a degree scrutiny rarely brought to bear. Since Fort's death, scientists have recognized the "Experimenter effect" — the tendency for experiments to tend to validate given preconceptions. Robert Rosenthal has done pioneering research on this and related subjects.
                                    There are many phenomena in Fort's works which have now been partially or entirely "recuperated" by mainstream science — ball lightning, for example, was largely rejected as impossible by the scientific consensus of Fort's day, but is now generally recognized as a genuine phenomenon. However, many of Fort's ideas remain on the very borderlines of "mainstream science", or beyond, in the fields of paranormalism and the bizarre. This is unsurprising, as Fort resolutely refused to abandon the territory beyond "acceptable" science. Nonetheless, later research has demonstrated that Fort's claims are at least as reliable as his sources. In the 1960s, American writer William R. Corliss began his own documentation of scientific anomalies. Partly inspired by Fort, Corliss checked some of Fort's sources and concluded that Fort's research was "accurate, but rather narrow" -- there were many anomalies which Fort did not include in his books.

                                    Many consider it odd that Fort, a man so skeptical and so willing to question the pronouncements of the scientific mainstream, would be so eager to take old stories — for example, stories about rains of fish falling from the sky — at face value. It is debatable whether Fort did in fact accept evidence at face value: many instances in his books, Fort notes that he regarded certain data and assertions as unlikely, and he additionally remarked, "I offer the data. Suit yourself." In Fort's books, it's often difficult to determine if he took his proposals and "theories" seriously; however, as noted on the extraterrestrial hypothesis page, Fort did seem to hold a genuine belief in the presence of extraterrestrial visitations to the Earth.
                                    • The theories and conclusions Fort presented often came from what he called "the orthodox conventionality of Science". Fort's works have — on nearly every page — reports of odd events which were originally printed in respected mainstream scientific journals or newspapers such as Scientific American, The Times, Nature and Science. Time and again, Fort noted, that while some phenomena related in these and other sources were enthusiastically accepted and promoted by scientists, just as often, inexplicable or unusual reports were ignored, or were effectively swept under the rug. And repeatedly, Fort reclaimed such data from under the rug, and brought them out, as he wrote, "for an airing". So long as any evidence is ignored — however bizarre or unlikely the evidence might seem — Fort insisted that scientists' claims to thoroughness and objectivity were questionable.

                                      [It did not matter to Fort whether his data and theories were accurate: his point was that alternative conclusions and world views can be made from the same data "orthodox" conclusions are made, and that the conventional explanations of science are only one of a range of explanations, none necessarily more justified than another.]

                                      In this respect, he was far ahead of his time. In The Book of the Damned he showed the influence of social values and what would now be called a "paradigm" on what scientists consider to be "true". This prefigured work by Thomas Kuhn decades later. In a similar way the anarchic "anything goes" approach to science of Paul Feyerabend is similar to Fort's.

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